Top-down and bottom-up: Two approaches for... Hydrodynamics?

Submitted by gwolf on Thu, 05/24/2007 - 09:52
Yesterday we had one of our first full-evening rains of this Summer. It started raining around 15:00, and didn't really stop until past 22:00. Most of the time, it was a low intensity rain. Also yesterday, Sergio and I started with the Debian course I recently talked about - Fun!
Now... This course is scheduled at Instituto de Astronomía, which is halfway between my work and my home. 19:00 to 21:00.
I decided to leave early, so we could check some pending details - At 18:00. I biked to Astronomía, about 1.5km. When I arrived, I was as wet as you usually get at a regular rain: I still had some dry spots under my arms and legs. Nothing terrible, although a bit coldish - Anyway, that's a top-down approach for hydrodinamics, the approach most people are used to.
When we finished this session, I had to go out in a rush, as I had a meeting at 20:00 at Balderas (downtown Mexico City, ~25min away by metro). Of course, I was one hour late already, and adding the time it would take me to get home, leave the bike and run to the metro, I could not just sit and wait for the rain to get any easier on me. So I pedalled.
Contrary to what I originally expected, I didn't get soaked wet in the usual pattern. Stronger rain leads to more rain flowing down the road. Yes, almost immediately I felt a cold shudder on my legs and back: The water sprayed from below by my wheels. Of course, the front wheel was even more fun, as it sprayed my face from below - My helmet has a small protuberance at the front to make some shadow, and tilting a bit my head forward prevented the rain from hitting my eyes - but the dirty water, with small bits of wood and whatnot, from the ground found an easy way to my face. My only defense was to close the eyes as much as I could without losing visibility. A strange excercise to do :) Anyway, that's the bottom-up approach for hydrodinamics.
Anyway, by the time I got home, after an extra ~1.5km, my pants were basically a soup. My shirt was not exactly dry, but it still kept me a bit warm. I just ushered inside, grabbed a jacket, and went on for my second meeting.
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On sending out the right image

Submitted by gwolf on Tue, 05/22/2007 - 22:29
At my Institute, we get the El Financiero newspaper - I like it quite a bit. It's very well balanced, with opinions from all of the political and economical points of view. Of course, it has huge business and market sections which I don't usually even care on looking at, as I won't understand much anyway. Those sections usually include advertisements for potential courses and businesses.
Today, Nadezhda showed me an ad that's just beautiful - It shows off the level of commitment and seriousness a company has. It is so beautiful that it deserves me copying it in Spanish and translating it for your further enjoyment. Of course, if somebody stumbles upon this advertisement at my personal blog - I don't know them, they might just be serious but clueless :)
A académicos, investigadores, intelectuales, economistas y expertos en reformas estructurales para el análisis de las siguientes:
  • Economía y finanzas
  • Educación y empleo
  • Seguridad y desarrollo social
  • Política y Energía
  • Reforma del estado
Para integrarse a un equipo serio y propositivo de Profesionales en estas áreas que brinde asesoría puntual sobre las antes descritas.
REQUISITOS: Titulados con Maestría y/o Doctorado. Contar con publicaciones especializadas.
Interesados enviar CV al correo electrónico:

Bosque de Ciruelos No. 140, piso 12, oficina 1202, col. Bosques de las Lomas
And now, for your further amusement, in my hastily translated English, as faithfully as I can do it.
Academics, researchers, intelectuals, economists and structural reform experts for the analysis of the following areas:
  • Economics and finances
  • Education and employment
  • Social security and development
  • Politics and Energy
  • State reform
To join a serious and propositive team of Professionals in the above areas that gives punctual advice regarding the aforementioned.
REQUIREMENTS: Holders of a title, with M.Sc. or Ph.D. studies. Having specialized publications.
Interested people, send your CV by email to:

Bosque de Ciruelos No. 140, piso 12, oficina 1202, col. Bosques de las Lomas
Yes, several of the redaction mistakes are in the original text (and several more were introduced due to my English translation, of course).
Anyway... Would you believe in the seriousness of a professional-looking group of economists, paying around US$2000 for 1/4 page in one of the leading Mexican newspapers? By the way, their offices are located at one of Mexico City's most exclusive, expensive areas. But... For ${deity}'s sake... COME ON! Please tell juan_zzz to get a decent-looking mail and domain! Having their main contact addresses at two free mail providers, Starmedia and Yahoo, does no service at all to their professional image! How can people still not pay even a bit of attention to those basic details?
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Cannot help it - Are you into human interface design?

Submitted by gwolf on Tue, 05/22/2007 - 10:42
Thanks to Planeta Debian (yes, planeta, the Spanish version of Planet Debian), I came across this Darío Rapisardi's post.
Sometimes poetry can be expressed in human-interface guidelines.
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When bad system design leads to pain...

Submitted by gwolf on Thu, 05/17/2007 - 10:22
A long time ago, I wrote the system that still manages the Cuerpo Académico Historia del Presente group in the Universidad Pedagógica Nacional. Yes, I'm happy a good portion of my project, which took me over a year of work... But I must admit a nice deal of shame as well.
Of course, it comes from not properly understanding the domain data and information volume my system would be working with - and coming up with a stupid way to implement searches. I won't get too much in detail because, even if you had access to the full search facility in the system (no, it's not available for the general public), I would not like a swarm of curious people to make last week's events come back... Anyway, the group works by daily filling in tens or hundreds of articles in the system, and having some interesting search sessions every couple of months.
I knew the performance problem was caused by an inefficient searching mechanism (explicitly, category exclusion is the prime killer). I knew loadavg jumped through the roof, memory usage did so as well... But it was not until some weeks ago we installed the mighty Munin on the machines at UPN that we got this jewel - Thanks, Victor, for putting the graphics somewhere they can be shown! ;-)
So... How much does memory usage increase during searches?

Whoa. The system has 640MB real RAM. It has as well 1GB swap. Don't ask me how the hell it reports it was using ~2GB swap - but still... And how is our load average?

Have you ever seen a (single CPU, Pentium 4 1.7GHz) Linux system with a loadavg of 80?! For those who don't know, loadavg gives you the general status on how many jobs are pending scheduling by the CPU. 1 means that all of the CPU's time during a specified timeframe was used (and, on single-core systems, it's the optimal usage level). On this machine, things start getting uncomfortable at 6 or 7. I had never before seen values even half this large.
Sigh... Well, in my defense, I must say I've warned them about this problem for over two years. My contract with them has long passed - I've repeatedly recommended them to hire somebody to fix it. So far, they have not.
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On magazines without editorial direction

Submitted by gwolf on Wed, 05/16/2007 - 14:45
Scott complains on how Linux Format #93's articles comparing Ubuntu and other distributions often contradict each other, and blames it on the lack of any editorial direction or basic research.
I... Have to confirm this. But anyway, I can stand a bit on the different writers' side - Each article is written by a different person and, although the magazine must try to be coherent (of course, within certain limits - if the magazine suggests editor's picks in one article, they should not bash them to death in the next one).
I write the Linux column in the Spanish edition of PC Magazine. No, it's by far not a technical column, nor anything far like it. The magazine is end-user oriented, and clearly sponsorship-driven - In fact, my column was not part of the magazine for quite some time, as they gear it towards end-users, and sponsors (I cannot venture which sponsors, but your imagination will probably go to the same company as mine) do not like what I write about. All in all, I get the general topics which each month's edition will cover, and I just have to write an article about one of them. Of course, I don't know most of the other writers. There is no interaction at all.
And I guess that Linux Format is a typical magazine - If they run like PC Magazine, they just won't have the time to put all the articles together checking for inconsistencies. I think it is enough of a task to chase the contributors month after month (BTW, I'm a week late already :-/ But I cannot finish just today, as there's too much work to do, and I spend my time blogging... Hmh, time to finish this post, as coitus interruptus as it may seem).
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Starting as a mentor soon

Submitted by gwolf on Wed, 05/16/2007 - 11:04
After a long time talking this as a mere potential would-be-nice thing, finally we are putting some action behind our words: One week from now, Sergio Mendoza and I will start a ~2 month long extracurricular course on Debian. The students? We have 12 students of the Facultad de Ciencias at my University. The students are pre- and post-graduate (licenciatura and maestría), from the Phsyics and Astronomy areas. Sergio got this group as he is a teacher and researcher at Instituto de Astronomía.
While this first iteration is completely extra-curricular, unofficial and by invitation only, we expect this pilot course to be later presented as an official course in the Faculty.
Many people will remember I usually don't like general courses on Unix, Debian or whatever. What made me accept this time - even more, be enthusiastic about it? First of all, the requirements: We assume the students already know their way (at least as users) in a multiuser Unix-like system, so we won't be hand-holding them all the way through. Second, the focus: Sergio (who is among the first Debian users in Mexico and who got us our first full Debian mirror - which is actually a bit sick, but awaiting for prompt hardware upgrade ;-) ) wants them to focus on becoming developers. Not only developing science-oriented applications and libraries, but properly packaging and integrating them in Debian (and, hopefully, some of them will become interested in joining the project). We will also spend a good portion of the course on teaching them good practices on system adminsitration, teaching the principles behind what we do (i.e. I'm looking forward to participating, and in this case as one of the more students, in the sessions where different cryptography-related topics will be explained, starting from their mathematical foundations and going all the way up towards the implementation, where I'm more comfortable at).
It will be a nice experiment. I will be away for at least five of the lessons (Blame Debconf!), but I'm really looking towards the process and the results.
We will be making rough documentation of what we teach. We don't have a planned complete program, as we want to go with the group's real skills and interests, planning not more than three lessons ahead. This will be, however unofficial it is, my first time in front of a group in a university-esque setting (i.e. not short sessions, not capacitation built for a company, but with people eager to learn what we want to teach. I'll post again on this topic :)
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Nekkid city!

Submitted by gwolf on Sun, 05/06/2007 - 20:37
I did it.
We did it.
The whole lot of us did it.
And we liked it.
In fact, we loved it.
Today, Spencer Tunick held his long awaited session in Mexico City. I signed up a long time ago, yet could not believe this was really going to happen - And man, did it happen!
For those still wondering who is Tunick (lazy you, as with the first link, it becomes just obvious), he is an artist who enjoys gathering large crowds, getting them all naked, and photographing them. Some people (including me, until this morning) erroneously categorize him as a photographer - No way! Out of Tunick's own words, out of many comments I heard and read today (i.e. at El Universal's forum), I can assure you only a participant can feel Tunick's art - A sensation of togetherness, of freedom, of clean enjoyment, throwing out the denial and repression we have regarding ourselves and our society.
I was quite skeptical. The Mexican society is well known for being conservative on many issues. Nudism in Mexico is basically something not even talked about. There are a couple of nudist beaches, but they are closely associated with relaxed morals and drug abuse, and are just not safe for, say, women on their own. Nudists are seen as sex-maniacs... And, yes, this is as far as it gets from truth.
As I said, not only did it happen here, but how! We were between 18,000 and 20,000 naked people in the Zócalo, Mexico City's main square, the third largest square in the world. The previous attendance record for Tunick's works was at Barcelona, Spain, with 7,000 people. And the surprise is not just the number - I insist, it fills me with joy to recognize a positive change in my country, to recognize we are not that retrograde anymore.
Nadezhda and I were there, as many couples, groups of friends, even families (although, yes, people under 18 were requested not to come - they would be expelled if found). I think the main age group was people in their late 20s, but there were many people from every age group. We met people who travelled from Jalapa, Veracruz (5 hr away), to be here today. I read reports of people coming from Guanajuato (5 hr), Oaxaca (6-7 hr), even Durango (14 hr)! We met near the Zócalo at 4:30 AM, as Tunick likes making his work with the early morning light. As you can imagine, and after quite a busy and tiring day, I feel like minced meat... So I'll leave this for now. I expect to come back to the topic in the next couple of days - But anyway: This was amazing. Incredible.
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On certifications

Submitted by gwolf on Thu, 05/03/2007 - 12:33
Ok, so LPI will be at Debconf, giving discounted certifications to registered attendees. Is this good or bad? Mario likes the idea, Madduck is in the middle ground, not decided on his stance on this regard, and Joerg basically says it's not worth much to him personally. Actually, I'll quote Madduck, as he has an interesting point:
I am not looking for employment, and if I was, I'd certainly not want to work at a company that thinks certifications are the true proof of capabilities. So I guess that leaves me with a 'no' still.
When confronted with this topic, I always oppose certifications. Why? First of all, I think they are worth very little. I got three or four Brainbench certifications when they were free - And of course, noticed right away that such a simplistic test is worth very little. Of course, LPI is a better established name, and is usually respected - Lets be fair, and talk about LPI together in the line with Cisco's, Microsoft's, Novell's and similar certification programs.
I've worked with several people who have got certified in different technologies, and almost always, this works against them rather than in their favor - Such people usually are blinded to all but their technologies. My most recent experiences are with the network infrastructure people - Cisco people know how to push Cisco, but know very little about protocol details, and cannot recommend a tool that's not madesold by Cisco. Same goes for 3Com. Same goes for everybody else.
Although many certification tests include general situations like Solve this real-world problem, they are hampered by the final exam syndrome: The certification candidate spent a couple of nights frantically reading the books, and the material sits eager to jump on his brain lobes. Of course, given a couple of weeks, he has forgotten most of it and confused the rest. No, I don't have hard data to back this up except for my experience - But I have some experience at least. Oh, and of course: This people can quote from memory in inverse alphabetical order each of the command-line options to ls, but might be unable to spit up a clever shell pipeline without sketching it in paper and thinking it over for some minutes.
What will this mean for most of Debconf's target audience? Well, just what Ganneff and Madduck said: Take the test if you want to get a new job more easily - but you should have more confidence in yourself.
Just as a final note: Whenever I've interviewed people to work with me or for people that trust me, from all of the received curricula, I start by throwing out every curriculum that has the certifications earned in a prominent place. People who give too much weight to certifications IMHO tends to be worthless to work with.
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09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0

Submitted by gwolf on Thu, 05/03/2007 - 10:48
This looks like random blabbering, right? A very specific random blabbering that has somehow appeared in blogs of at least tens (if not hundreds, maybe even more) blogs of techies all over the place. What is it?
For the more tech-friendly readers, it has some resemlance to a number - a long number, a 32128 bit one. And for those of you who are not Computer Science minded, you might actually prefer to see it as a simple base-10 (that means, decimal system) number: 13'256,278'887,989'457,651'018,865'901,401'704,640. I don't know how to spell it in English, but I do in Spanish (why? Because we have this difference: In Spanish, a billion is a million millions, and a trillion is a million billions - unlike English, where a billion is a thousand millions and a trillion is a thousand billions). So, lets do the excercise in Spanish:
Trece sextillones, doscientos cinuenta y seis mil doscientos setenta y ocho quintillones, ochocientos ochenta y siete mil novecientos ochenta y nueve cuatrillones, cuatrocientos cincuenta y siete mil seiscientos cincuenta y un trillones, dieciochomil ochocientos sesenta y cinco billones, novecientos un mil cuatrocientos un millones, setecientos cuatromil seiscientos cuarenta
Hah! I guess my fifth-grade teacher would be quite proud of me!
Now, I hereby pronounce my transcription of this utterly long and basically random-generated number into the beautiful Spanish language copyrighted by me, and publicly available under the Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License, as it is a very valuable and hard literary work.
But, really, what is it? Well, this mindboggingly long number is the key with which most HD-DVD movies processed so far is encrypted with. Of course, the Motion Picture Ass. of America (MPAA) does not want this (again, randomly generated) number to be out there in the wild, so they say the number is copyrighted by them - This does not hold up, as it has been widely shown before (i.e. Intel dropped its 286/386/486 numbering scheme because a number is not copyrightable or trademarkable - and AMD was perfectly able to legally sell 386/486 chips). So, I have put more work into this number than what they have. I deserve the credit - the transcription is mine. Use it freely.
Oh, and of course, some more examples:[update]: Yes, sorry, I was counting with half of my brain shut down and the other half brain trying to fetch some coffeine, or something like that. It's a 128 bit number, not 32!
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Dude, where's my country? Seems like Google doesn't know

Submitted by gwolf on Wed, 04/25/2007 - 23:35
I was trying to make a credit-card purchase on the web. The site I was trying to give money to prefers not to directly handle such messy details, and outsource their credit card application to Google. So far, so good - I got redirected to Google Checkout. Ok, I start filling in my personal data, until...

WTF? and yes, I do mean it. WTF?
I live, as many of you know, in a little country called Mexico. No, it does not appear on many world atlases. It's so very small, only slightly below two million square kilometers, that it's easily overlookable. Also, only a hundred million people live there - Not much. No, the 25,000,000 people that live together with me in Mexico City won't feel left out at all - We are used to it. But come on - In the listing I see our alphabetically neighouring countries (Malta, Mauritius, Moldova, Monaco)... Why did they get listed and we didn't? Of course, I tried editing the form data and substituting Moldova's MD for our dear MX, to no avail - We are not only off the map in their lists, but also in the database - and there are some integrity checks. Does somebody know which way should I whine in order to get the Google folks to fix this? :(
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tbm's Release Management talk

Submitted by gwolf on Wed, 04/25/2007 - 19:09
Thanks to Romain Francoise, I found and watched Martin Michlmayr's Release Management in Large Free Software Projects talk on Google Video's Open Source Speaker series. Martin: Thanks a lot, great talk. I've been following your presentations lately, as I've given some talks on this topic - Quality Assurance on Free Software Projects (Spanish only) - However hard I try to remain faithful to the subject, I end up giving a talk on what Free Software is and how its processes are naturally more prone to yielding better quality than propietary projects.
Anyhow, with this post I want to do basically three things:
  • To cheer Martin for writing and presenting the topic. I've been refering to your work for a long time, and although my presentations are not formally papers and thus have no quotation value (in fact, they often don't have the references as anything more than comments in the source files, it at all), I should thank you frontally and publicly.
  • To get some more attention to the topics presented. Your point is very interesting and important to be taken into account specifically for Debian: I'm not 100% with you regarding that time-based releases is the way to go, but the point you make when discussing GCC (IMHO) is an important one: A project can shift to time-based releases even if it does not release on time, and its general inner processes can become quite cleaner. I do think we witnessed this with Etch in Debian - The process was much more believable and peaceful (even with all the release-related mudfights) than with Sarge. I think it partly stems from what you point out: We aimed to release in December, and we failed to precisely meet the target - but having the date helped set the release goals to something believable, and not let Sid's unstability drift too far away. During Sarge's testing cycle, for a long time, few of us even cared to use testing at all, as it was... Something completely undefined.
  • To get some insight on some points. Martin, in several of the projects you analyzed, there is a tendency to get to a six months release cycle. Many other projects also follow that cycle - There is a time-based project you didn't mention that is to me one of the inspirations of such model, and has proven to work for over a decade: OpenBSD. Yes, it lacks in many areas, and definitively not everybody can aspire to become an OBSD developer, but they have done high-quality six-month releases since they exist. However, speaking specifically for Debian: Would you like our project to follow such a schedule? For many reasons (including one you mentioned, the difficulty to support several concurrent versions, or just having oldstable versions be left too early with no support) I think we should aim for a 18 month cycle, 12 at the very least. Either I lacked attention when you went over that part or you didn't mention it - but why do you think such a short cycle is good for so many projects? What would you like Debian to do? (Of course, for answering this, you might be Martin, or somebody else entirely ;-) )
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Init-related ideas BoF submitted for Debcamp

Submitted by gwolf on Tue, 04/17/2007 - 17:27
Ok, so it just seems like a hot topic - I just submitted a BoF for Debcamp to talk about the init-related ideas we've been discussing. As Debconf's Pentabarf conference management system does not like disclosing talk details before the talks are accepted, I'll reproduce here my short blurb:
This BoF comes out from several ideas posted in Planet Debian by Erich Schubert, Sven Müller, Joachim Breitner, Mike Homey and myself (so far). It's not to be "chaired" by any of us particularly, but I expect an interesting brainstorming session.
There are several different init systems present in Debian - However, we are only supporting currently one of them, good ol' sysv-rc - We have close to a thousand packages providing init scripts suitable for it, and close to none for all of the other systems.
In current systems, full of hot-pluggable devices, changing network configurations and so on, however, I think this situation is quite prone to change - sysv-rc and its runlevels are better suited for stable server-like systems, and is hard to adapt for future needs.
We will talk about the potential difficulties Debian will face in order to better support more init schemes, and discuss some ideas to solve them.
This should be a brainstorming session, not much material will be prepared (maybe some sketches by each of us, but nothing formal). If you plan on attending, take a look at the messages linked to in the 'links' section.
Note that, following Nomeata's suggestion, I'm presenting this for Debcamp - If you are not attending Debcamp and are interested, we will try to set this up via some sort of videoconferencing (or at least the usual video feed + IRC feedback), and I do hope we can have something showable (at least a broken concept) after Debconf.
In not-so-closely-related topics, I just learnt there is a shadow of doubt regarding my presence in Edinburgh - I will do my best to dispell the threat. I just don't want to miss a Debconf!
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Init followup

Submitted by gwolf on Tue, 04/17/2007 - 14:03
First of all, sorry for the delay. Leaving just as the discussion gets started is bad, yes... But I'm only now reading Erich's and Sven's follow-ups. Both (as well as some comments in my blog) ask why not integrating the startup links in each of the packages - Well, basically because I don't think that most maintainers will take care to do this, and we will end up having a situation very close to what we have today: If I'm not interested in supporting your favorite init system in my packages, I just won't bother to make the scripts.
Note: I'm going into braindump mode. Verbose blabber and some stupidity might follow ;-)
Think on the webapp scene - Most webapps ship with an Apache-like snippet so that http://yourserver/thisapp just works(tm). I love that, and it's one of the little details that make Debian shine - Things usually work with the least administrator burden possible. But it happens that there are other web servers around there - They just become somehow second class citizens (I happen to sponsor/comaintain Cherokee, for instance), as nobody cares to include the equivalent snippets for them. Apache is the standard, and is good enough.
The same goes for sysv-rc: It just rules the world. Who will work all the needed patches to support all the different init systems? As the maintainer for a simple package which requires to be started up, I probably won't care to even understand all the intimacies of every init system, at least until they all have a decent user base. But by having one package per (server,init-scheme) pair, any maintainer can come up with the needed initialization.
Of course, this degrades quickly. First of all, as a user: if mydaemon is not correctly starting up, I will probably file bugs at mydaemon, not at mydaemon-initscheme. If mydaemon changes its parameters, we will witness transition of mydaemon-*.
Further, remember this is Debian, and volunteer-work has its downsides. If the mydaemon maintainer is a primadonna (or just does not give a flying crap about the runit init scheme), he will just trash reports regarding a nonimportant init scheme. Bad. And, as Erich points out, we have ~1000 packages including /etc/init.d/something - It will mean 3000 or so packages for a decent (not complete!) coverage of the different schemes. And, of course, a very uncoordinated way of working. But back to my line of thought: If I'm promoting an init scheme, I cannot just push it down each maintainer's throat. I must include at least the most important init scripts somewhere. Maybe we could just group daemons by task, and then have -say- a webservers-runit package providing the init scripts for each webserver for runit? This could cut down from 3000 to some 100 packages, most probably team-maintained... But it still faces many scalability problems, and the bug-filled-somewhere-else problem seems unavoidable.
I think something interesting could come off Sven's idea of providing several independent scripts instead of today's complete init scripts - This would make it easier to adapt startup/shutdown and similar events to different world views, and if not specifically needed, most init scripts could even be autogenerated calling the right bits here and there. That would rock - except in the corner cases (I predict no less than 10% of the packages will become corner cases ;-) ) where it will crumble apart. But maybe if a package declares it should be autostarted and provides the separate bits, the sysv-rc, upstart or runit helper can come up with an autobuilt initscript (or equivalent) - And if it does not work, it can always be overriden by a maintainer- (or user-) supplied, explicitly built script. Humh...
The topic surely calls for a Debcamp session, as Joachim says in comments in two of our posts and Erich acknowledges. Erich, as the main instigator of this blog series, I hope you can at least join via Ekiga or such, as it can be quite interesting - But, yes, none of the people involved so far participates in any of the inits' maintenance... Anyway, please keep the ideas flowing. I want to sketch something up, as I feel this can be useful - and not only for initscripts, but for many of the areas where Debian provides several ways to do the same thing. And, once again, that's one of the best points of Debian for me.

On system init schemes

Submitted by gwolf on Thu, 04/12/2007 - 09:50
I was delighted at finding Erich's series of posts regarding init schemes - In fact, when reading the bottom of your third message I got disappointing at you stating that this concludes this series of blog posts. Maybe someone can follow up with some details on upstart (which seems to be the most promising init replacement)? - I expected you to delve a bit into other schemes, such as file-rc (which is, AFAIK, quite similar to the standard sysv-rc, but instead of having directories with symlinks has files describing each runlevel in similar terms, and I understand works in quite a similar logic to sysv-rc), runit seems to work in a way quite similar to BSD's RC...
I was particularly interested on your point of view on something like Init NG - And, of course, Upstart sounds sexy, and besides, being Scott's brainchild automatically stamps a must be good legend on it, at least for me. Shame that you didn't follow on with the series - but hey, nobody's paying you to do it ;-)
Anyway... I was thinking on a way we could get at least Debian maintainers work more easily towards having more than one init scheme for our daemons and such - or at least, shipping less cruft for derived distributions to clean up. Specifically, yes, our most notorious descendant goes Upstart, so /etc/init.d/* becomes crufty for them. So, what if:
  • All daemon-like packages (i.e. those containing a daemon, or running something at startup, i.e. setting up a service interface) will be affected. Lets call our sample daemon-bearing package example
  • example will no longer ship an initscript. In fact, after some time, policy will mandate no initscripts (that is, what we today put in /etc/init.d) are included in our base packages. example will only recommend example-init. Why recommend it? Because it does not even now depend on a specific initscript - I've rolled some systems which are based on my very own init handler, for specific needs.
  • The original example package maintainer will probably take his very same initscript, and package it as example-sysvinit. This script will provide the example-init virtual package. (Of course, this will mean a very real proliferation of virtual package names). example-sysvinit will depend on sysv-rc.
  • The same maintainer, or a different one, will also package example-nginit, example-bsdinit, example-runitinit and/or example-upstartinit, depending on their respective infrastructures, and providing as well example-init. Ideally, they won't even have to conflict on each other.
  • Maybe I'm daydreaming and this could just be a bit too much... But with all support in place, even the init system itself could be handled via /etc/alternatives ;-)
This means, yes, a serious explosion of very small packages. But it also means less dependency on a specific maintainer to be sympathetic to yet-another-init-scheme. If I'm pushing superb-init, which does preemptive reverse dependency tracking and invention and works based on the oh-so-3v1l aptsh, and I'm having a hard time convincing anybody to update their packages to support my init scheme before it matures, I can at least come up with all the needed scripts to get my system usable and considerable for the masses. Sounds decent? Did I smoke too much crack? No, I haven't had my morning coffee yet, so I'll go grab some while this hits the planet.
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Etch is done! Sarge is done once again! Sam rules! Yay for the weekend!

Submitted by gwolf on Mon, 04/09/2007 - 10:31
Wow, what a wonderful weekend was this for Debian. And, yet again, I managed to miss the live announcement and party on IRC.
So... We got a shiny, new, French DPL. Just after that, we got one last release for Sarge, and right away we got a stable Etch - Who says having a new DPL cannot speed up things? ;-) Anyway... I don't remember where I started the meme when Sarge was released (it was not on my blog, it seems)... But here it goes again:
What were you doing at...
Etch release? Having a nice time with Nadezhda, walking around this broken and dear city in my last day of vacations.
Sarge release? At my psychologist. Yes, Sarge drove us all nuts.
Woody release? Sitting at a lent workstation at Departamento de Seguridad en Cómputo in my University. Of course, the announcement was broadcasted right away to everybody around me ;-) I was in NM by then, and was a bit disappointed because my work didn't appear in the release.
Potato release? Don't know... I was not yet involved with Debian by then.
[Update]: Thanks to Wouter, my old meme-starting message appeared - is he more patient than I am, or just more organized? :-) Anyway, boo for Jaws breaking old URLs (I upgraded 0.4->0.5->0.6->0.7 since then)
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